This means there are seams between boards and in the corners as well as having lots of screw penetrations. ". https://psthisrocks.com. Press question mark to learn the rest of the keyboard shortcuts. Mortar, grout and cement-board are all cement based masonry materials that absorb water. I have the durock in place already and the fibermesh tape has been applied along with the mortar on the joints. Bad news is that he DID use mastic on ALL bath/shower walls. Then you waterproof it. laila, I haven't talked to my contractor about it yet. Although some contractors simply screw the concrete backer-board directly to the subfloor, it is best to embed each sheet in a troweled layer of thin-set mortar. However, any waterproof screw will do. So 1) how would I go about finding out what local building code is? Once all your concrete-board is hung, its very important to seal all the seams and corners. One of the more difficult skills to acquire in the building industry is the ability to float a reinforced cement pad, generally referred to as a "mud job," for setting tile. Most types of concrete backer-board are made of a fibrous cement composition thats molded into sheets. Youll know when Redgard is dry because it turns color from pinkish to red. Next, seal all seams with a suitable caulking, and finally, seal the entire exposed surface to inhibit water penetration before or during your tile installation to render the concrete backer board water resistant. If you do find movement, remove the cement-board and fix the issue before applying waterproofing. On your substrate and the size of the tile used. Make sure you also waterproof any shelves, seats, curbs and/or other decorative areas you may have built into the shower. kmcg, when you showed that literature to your contractor, did he agree to do it correctly? Concrete board is strong and stiff with high compressive strength. Most cement-board manufacturers also sell screws approved for their boards. Moisture is stopped at the front of the cement board instead of behind it. We Update Weekly & Its All Completely FREE. Need help designing tub with window in tub/shower to be waterproof. Extremely wet areas like showers not only have lots of water but also humidity. I use a liquid waterproofing sealant like Redgard. Any moisture that absorbs down to the cement board will be stopped by the waterproofing. Laila, it depends. When installed, cement board is water-resistant, not water-proof. Its enough to resist water in areas that dont get that wet like a tiled floor. However, over time moisture can work its way below the tiles and to the cement-board. So, will the durock/cement board + thinset and tile on walls and floor be enough? Cement board in a shower should be waterproofed before you install tile. Mastic is it something that I'd ever use in a shower. I recommend Frog tape. However, most installations conform to the following procedures: Hey guys and gals I would appreciate a relativley quick response on this one. I found an installation pdf on the Durock website that said Durock is water resistant, but for a waterproof installation, you need a different product. "My contractor used mastic everywhere he installed new tile for me--kitchen floor, foyer, etc. This amount of moisture is too much for cement board, mortar, tile and grout to handle alone. Meaning it will not deteriorate when exposed to water. But I'm lucky to know about this in advance, and will simply insist that he has to do it this way, and I will pay for the extra materials/time in order to make it happen. This can cause rot and mold. This ensure no water can penetrate through the cement board and onto the framing which can eventually cause rot, mold, mildew and deterioration. Before you install the backer-board, check that the sub-floor is not bouncy, weak or rotted; concrete backer-board has thousands of pounds of compression strength but very little tensile strength (strength to adequately span a distance), since it is not designed to carry spanned loads. However, it does not make a shower, bathroom or kitchen area waterproof simply by installing it. @Susanalanaandwrigley The edging that I got was metal. If the mastic can't see enough air the mastic can remain soft. I'm a bit worried because everything I've seen or read says that you have to water proof everything somehow, but it doesn't seem as if they are going to (they're about to start tiling). Once installed, use a liquid waterproofing sealant like Redgard on all cracks, seams and screw holes. When it comes time to install tile, I recommend adding a little hardener to the mortar. It helps prevent mold and wont deteriorate when wet like drywall will. Press J to jump to the feed. NJ Businesses. Walk around the floor and press the walls and al surfaces covered by concrete-board. Once the cement board is installed, tape off areas you dont want waterproofing. Smooth the surface as well as possible. The main guy of the company says they will fix it if it is their fault they are wanting to blame my poor choice in tile. These are the most likely areas that will get water penetration. The difference between concrete backer-board and water-resistant gypsum board lies in the former's strength. Strike One~ No waterproofing.Strike Two~ Mastic. Installation techniques for different brands of concrete backer-board vary by manufacturer, so check the installation suggestions with regard to the particular brand you purchase. Concrete backer-board certainly is waterproof in that it will not disintegrate when exposed to moisture for long durations. Sigh. You need to apply waterproofing over cement board in wet areas such as a shower. Most times a project like this is supposed to have an inspection done midway. So that's at least a relief! Any moisture that penetrate through the mortar will be stopped by the waterproofing. I always wipe the tiles down to as soon as the shower is done. How Many Square Feet Of Concrete In A Yard? They'll just tell you to use it if it's required. Apply at least two coats of waterproofing. It is extremely hard and waterproof, meaning it will not deteriorate over time when exposed to water, making it ideal for use in high-traffic areas that are susceptible to the adverse effects of moisture. To prevent the moisture from absorbing through the cement board and onto the wood frame, a waterproofing layer is needed. Step 4 in swapping your tub for a sleek new shower: Pick your waterproofing materials and drain, and don't forget to test, Whether in woodwork, flooring, wall treatments or tile, you can get a luxe effect while spending less, Don't take chances on this all-important team member. I have a fiberglass tub that I am going to be doing a tile surround with. Build the floor out of cement-board with waterproofing. Tile size: Mastic cures by drying, so it needs exposure to a certain amount of free air. I spoke to him again and he said that since it's an older house the walls are not really straight, the morter was crappy (that I bought but I told him that I could buy a higher quality if he wanted me too.he said no this will work..smh), and the tile itself was "uneaven".I'm having two people come and inspect today. Durock doesn't deteriorate in the presence of water, but it doesn't stop water from soaking through it. Apply waterproofing to the corners, seams and screw holes first. Its done just like applying drywall tape to wet spackle. Tool Guy Lg asked: Did you install a moisture barrier behind the Durock and lap the bottom of it over the tiling flange of the Swanstone shower receptor? waterproofing is only needed where water is. Metrojersey.com NJ's #1 Web Directory That could be the floor, walls, shelves, a curb or seat. This can be done with paint on membranes like RedGard or Hydrobanor sheet membranes. Then press the tile down into the floor. Think of it as having the structure of a sponge. Cement board comes in sheets, usually 3x5, and is secured to stubs with special screws. The tiles will probably come loose before the studs rot. Is it okay in these areas since they aren't generally wet, or is this still a no no? This shower will be used about 1 time every two weeks as it is a guest bathroom only. In the case of Durock, they'll tell you how to install the boards, what backing is required, how many fasteners to use, how to treat panel joints, etcbut then they'll get fairly ambiguous about how their specific material should relate to the other materials used. I want to put vinyl plantation shutters in my shower. That should be changed---. Dont demolish distract the eye by updating small details, Take your bathroom from drab to fab without getting out the sledgehammer or racking up lots of charges, Landscape Architects & Landscape Designers, Outdoor Lighting & Audio/Visual Specialists, CHRISTI TASKER | Creative Director, Designer, Convert Your Tub Space Into a Shower Waterproofing and Drainage, Look-Alikes That Save Money Without Skimping on Style, 5 Steps to Help You Hire the Right Contractor, Contractor Tips: What Your Contractor Really Means, Contractor's Tips: 10 Things Your Contractor Might Not Tell You, Contractor Tips: 10 Ways to Get the Remodel You Want for Less, 8 Ways to Spruce Up an Older Bathroom (Without Remodeling), 4 Easy Ways to Renew Your Bathroom Without Remodeling, Need suggestions for lights, accent tile, mirrors. Install some tape where you dont want caulk. Does this matter? This makes is a great backer material for tile and stone slabs. Do you happen to have a link to the water proofer product you've used? If removing the Durock is still an option, this is an inexpensive path to take. For very thin grout lines use un-sanded grout. But it has low tensile strength and needs to be installed on a solid foundation. By posting this I sort of fell like I'm intentionally hitting my thumb with a hammer. This is a tear-out and re-do with a competent installer. Thank you!!! This is where tape and masking comes in handy. If your contractor didn't pull a permit and get inspections I'd be wary about the quality of work. Plus there are national, state, and local building codes. OK, here's one of those silly questions, but I just want to make sure I'm clear before I do something difficult to undo. Once the first layer is dry, apply a second layer over everything. Allow the area to completely dry before installing any tile. The further down the crack you can get caulk the better the waterproofing will be. Many builders used to apply a layer of mud to form a shower floor. Really push the caulk into the cracks with a decent amount of pressure. However its not a waterproof material. Tile and grout don't stop all the moisture that's exposed to them. This means a second coat on all screw holes, corners and seams and a single coat on all flat areas. Some moisture gets behind the tile and into the cement board. Expose Durock to enough moisture and the moisture will pass right through. This make installing tiles later a little easier. It creates a nice edge with very little bleeding. Your former friend isn't wrong, that's the way it used to be done. He already thinks I'm a little bit detail-obsessed, so I doubt he'll be surprised. Use the trowel and/or roller to apply product first and then the brush to work it into all the corners, seams and cracks. If it's required by code and he didn't install anything behind the cement backer board, it's "failure to perform". The hell it is. My contractor said he planned to do the same thing, which I posted about recently. But legally? Registration on or use of this site constitutes acceptance of our User Agreement, Privacy Policy and Cookie Statement, and Your California Privacy Rights (User Agreement updated 1/1/21. Once water hits the cement-board it needs to be stopped by a waterproofing layer. New members: Adding your location to your profile helps in many ways.--M--. Moderator -- Wisconsin Kitchen & Bath Remodeler. You might try contacting him and see if you can have a three way conversation with him and your contractor. Come join the discussion about tools, projects, builds, styles, scales, reviews, accessories, classifieds, and more! Youll know its dry because the color turns from pink to red. I always apply at least two layer. The way you eventually apply your mud, tile and grout can help waterproof the cement board too. Caulk this joint with 100% silicone. First, you should provide a waterproof/resistant membrane against the wood studs before installing the concrete backer-board to protect the wood studs from moisture absorbed through the backer-board. "The hell it is. Its very stiff and strong with very little flex. I was certainly surprised and apparently confused by the wording of his comment. However, showers are constantly in contact with large amounts of water and moisture. concrete board or wonder-board is a cement based product designed as a sheathing material for walls and floors. Cement-board is a fantastic material for use in a shower. Or should I insist on them doing more to water proof it before tiling? I spend half of every shower lamenting how the grout needs cleaning again and instead of luxuriating in the water, I grab the brush and scrub away. I have always seen that done first but see I learn something everyday. The mesh provides tensile strength to the mud job, while the cement provides compression strength. He said he wasn't used to working with metal and preferred bullnose.but I think metal looks cleaner. If you have any questions about waterproofing cement board, email any time. ARGH! This is again usually a tub or shower pan. Tile, mortar and grout are water resistant but not waterproof. Sponges undergo repeated wetting and drying cycles and are pretty much undamaged by water. Every pail says it can be used. Yes, this is the same contractor who ruined my kitchen too, which I recently posted about. Now I'm sort of walking a tightrope with this reply. They don't want to tell you you have to use waterproofing, where to use the waterproofing, or what waterproofing to use. Running late this morningno time for dealing with idiots right now but I will say this: This guy (BUD) can criticize although he offers no advice lets not make this thread into personal attacks. I am just thinking I will use the thinset and get the tiles installed. Smooth it out and then apply another coating of waterproofing on top. This eliminates voids where water can collect and pop a tile. Tiling looks messy?!? But every manufacturer's rep will tell you it can't be done. Does my tile contractor need to use tape/thinset before tiling? What waterproof material would you recommend and what is the general method to install it. Use the correct grout. Not needed really anywhere except the tub/shower surround. The same hold true for cement board. As far as the mastic, technically and legally, if use only used it on the walls, he's technically and legally okay. So, if you're looking for durability and strength, concrete backer-board will probably be your choice. Cement board is a fantastic material for wet areas because its extremely water-resistant. You should be fine without waterproofing. This usually takes 60-90 minutes. In this case, you need to use a sealant. Next, use some silicone based caulk to seal the areas where cement board meets any other surface that doesnt get waterproofed. Inside lip of shower pan, tile not working. Im in a similar situation. Theres a common misconception that cement board is totally waterproof because its designed for wet areas, but it isnt. Thanks for any advice. His email is Srausch@usg.com and his cell phone is 404-281-2218. But I recommend using a screw thats designed to penetrate cement-board. Did you have any trouble with the bathroom years later? I recommend waterproofing all the large flat areas so the shower is completely red. Find the best general contractor for your remodel or new build by heeding this advice, Before you pick up a single tile, pull from these tips for expert results, Translate your contractor's lingo to get the communication on your home project right, Climbing through your closets and fielding design issues galore, your contractor might stay mum. JavaScript is disabled. Since many people confuse the terms, it is a common misconception that this is the best material for use inside a shower or tub area. Its applied directly to the concrete-board with a roller, trowel or sprayer and a brush. First, consider using a waterproof/resistant membrane against the wood studs before installing the concrete backer-board to protect the studs from moisture absorbed through the backer-board. If you want your cement board shower to eventually be waterproof, you have to install it correctly. This gives compression strength to an ordinary plywood sub-floor so that brittle flooring like ceramic tile can be placed upon it without a great risk of fracturing. I guess I didn't know that until now. The hardie board is uneven on the left side. Once the fiberglass is in place, cover it with another layer of waterproofing. If you need something to show your contractor, those installation documents might help. A community dedicated to helping people with advice on personal home improvement projects. Tile and stone are installed using mortar and typically have grout. With no poly attached to the studs or Kerdi or Hydroban applied to the Durock surface, there is nothing to prevent the studs from rotting away eventually. Since it is impregnated with a waxy substrate, it repels water, but has just about the same strength as common drywall (Sheetrock). Floors size is usually more restrictive due to the weight of walking on the tile. Apply the waterproofing generously. Contractor says he will fix?? These are the two main forces in all engineering. My contractor used mastic everywhere he installed new tile for me--kitchen floor, foyer, etc. No grout to mildew or have to clean, thin seams to seal in the corner and youre home free.. Substrate: Some manufacturers restrict the type of material that you can spread mastic on. When you use concrete backer-board in a bathroom or kitchen, there are some very important steps to follow. I spoke with Steve Rausch with USG, and he was very helpful. Once all the corners, seams and screw holes are sealed, go ahead and waterproof all the remaining flat areas. Make sure you have a good amount of product in the corner seam. If you are new here, please review posting/commenting guidelines below. No. Cement-board can be submerged in water without damage, green drywall cant. It has a special design that cuts down on bleeding. Its used as a sub-material behind tile in a shower, bathroom or kitchen. Simply apply mortar to the wall and then press the tiles in place. Push it into the waterproofing layer just like tape in spackle. 2) Does he have any liability or am I just screwed and I have to eat all that money + hire someone else? A former contractor friend I talked to yesterday claims he never used to water proof beyond the shower pan basically. Allow the caulk to completely dry before you apply any waterproofing. Geez, Bill, your comment made me go look. "Legally correct" can be different than "morally correct". I wanted a more modern look. And it doesnt flex much which makes cracked tiles less likely. Why not use a kitchen type solid surface material in the very large, tub size walk in shower youll have in the master bath. It adds to the cost of the job but I actually like having a building inspector come out at various stages of the job and take a look at what my contractor is doing and sign off on it. Allow the caulk to dry before you start waterproofing. And finally you apply mortar, tile and grout the right way. Is this common with contractors? Copyright 2022 Gambrick Construction website by On Your Mark Design and Graphics. The most practical wall sheathing in a tub or shower area is still ordinary green, water-resistant gypsum board. This has been replaced with cement board. Make sure the top of the screw is flush with the top of the concrete-board. Press the grout hard into the grout lines so that it penetrates all the way down to the mortar. If you apply waterproofing correctly, you wont need the additional membrane under the cement-board. This means cement board needs waterproofing. So there are all types of membrane materials that are used in conjunction with tile backer boards like Durock. Thank you all so much for your comments! Durock is cement board. This product is good for many projects and great for others. Concrete-board makes a great backing material for tile because its water-resistant and very stiff. Each board seam and corner should touch the next board without large gaps. Durock seams must be taped and mudded with thinset too before waterproofing is applied, Currently in the process of doing that now, sure is taking FOREVER, lol. Here's what you're missing, Work with your contractors and installers to ensure a safe, stylish curb that keeps the water where it belongs, Lighten the load on your remodeling budget without sacrificing your design by heeding this insider advice, Mint tiles got you feeling blue? You can tile directly on top of cement board in areas that dont get that wet. Fiberglass mesh can also be installed in the corners and seams. Once it's set in thin-set atop a sturdy plywood floor, screw the concrete backer-board to the subfloor at eight- to 10-inch intervals, using screws that are at least 11/4-inch long. Properly waterproofing a shower or other wet area is a combination approach. In this case, the OP says he already has vapor barrier behind the durock, so you SHOULDN'T waterproof it, otherwise, you'd be trapping moisture. Another manufacturer restricts tile to 12". However, all those seams, corners and screw holes need to be sealed. i'm no pro so don't quote me, but I can at least give you a direction to do some more research. But the Durock itself won't be damaged. For large areas you can use a sprayer, roller or trowel. Freestanding tub area. We've diy'ed a lot of apartments bath remodels (approx 10). Most of it is liability related. When discussing wall sheathings, I find people are confused by the terms "waterproof" and "water-resistant." Most were tile around tubs. Mastic is an organic adhesive and will re-emulsify in the presence of water. Most brands of concrete backer-board consist of a fibrous reinforcement cement composition molded into sheets. As to the adhesive used, the mastic? The coating on green drywall is just on the surface, if water penetrates into the drywall its ruined. Thanks. This is ideal for areas like bathrooms and kitchens that have high amounts of moisture and water. Once the caulk dries, apply the waterproof layer right over the caulk. Most concrete backer-boards on the market today are not water-resistant, but all are waterproof. But water can pass right through a sponge. I'm thinking both bathroom's walls need to be completely redone with proper water proofing and thinset instead of mastic. OMG, is this the same contractor who royally screwed up your kitchen? They also arent exposed to as much pressure because you don;t walk on them. But using it, even though it is allowed, doesn't make it a best, or even really a "good" building practice. (I'm in Oakland, CA). Some prohibit setting natural stone tile on floors with mastic. Once the cement board is installed, it needs waterproofing. I am a remodeling novice and one way I try to protect myself is by getting city permits on my remodeling jobs. Should I have been told? It feels pretty dang level to the touch so hopefully it will not effect the new tiles that are going to go up. I have looked at Redgard and that looks pretty easy to use. Helping You to Do It Yourself! But for wider grout lines use sanded. Concrete-board comes in sheets that are screwed to the wall or floor. Ask if any waterproofing membrane, or vapor retarder/membrane is required in a shower where the walls consist of tile over cement backer board. Its very hard and water-resistant. It's technically allowed in a shower surround on the walls, but not on the shower floor. So within the entire family of mastics, each manufacturer may have their own limitations due to how they formulate their specific products. Here, in Georgia anyhow, tile is considered finish work and can have only a taillight warranty. They did not pull permits, I actually didn't think it was needed for this remodel as they never even mentioned it. Call or visit your local building office if you have one. However, when a product is characterized as "water resistant," it means it is impermeable, able to repel water. Help please. My contractor says he needs to tile into the recessed area to protect it from moisture, but my shutter guy does not want to risk drilling holes in the tile to mount the shutters as he is afraid of cracking the tile. Cut the mesh to length and push it right into the wet waterproofing layer. When I questioned him about it, he said that just the Durock would be fine and that I didn't need anything else. For wall tiles you don;t have to apply mortar to the back of the tile. I feel sick over this. He only used Durock/mastic and did not use any sort of waterproof membrane or moisture barrier. If the frame you apply the concrete board onto is weak or moves, it could eventually crack the waterproofing layer and tile. Sorry, I'm sticking with Bud's advice. There will be seams between boards and in the corners which need to be sealed. Apply waterproofing about 6 inches on each side of a corner. builder, anti-builder, rebuilder -- Retired Moderator, The Durock should be furred out so it runs past the Swanstone receptor tiling flange and stops about 1/8 above the the deck. The USG literature will probably tell you it's "resistant to water damage" or something like that. In the shower pan they put a rubber liner and what I'm assuming is concrete on top of that. And its also much more water-resistant. If the screw heads stick up from the boards surface, itll interfere with the waterproofing layer. lets not make this thread into personal attacks. Good luck getting this resolved. I'm just trying to figure out my next move. Make sure the backer-board is fastened to the wall studs with galvanized screws or rustproof concrete backer-board screws. The mud-job has to be metrically smooth and screed to a point of perfection. It works just as well but cuts down on labor. Probably most common and least expensive, but at the same time adequate if properly detailed, is installing either tar paper of 6-mil poly sheeting between the Durock and the studs. Before you install any tiles, all the seams, cracks, screws and corners need to be properly sealed and waterproofed.