The standard bore block was then stuffed with a 4340 forged steel 4.0-inch crank and 6.125-inch rods, along with a set of flat-top, forged JE pistons. According to the Comp Cams catalog, "The lobe separation angle (LSA) is equal to 1/2 the angle in crankshaft degrees of rotation between the maximum exhaust valve lift and maximum intake lift.". To reiterate another point, I realize that wider LSAs tend to broaden the power band, but for a car I would like to bracket race a bit, as well as enjoy on the street, I was told that a narrower LSA will help the car accelerate at a faster rate. A wider lobe separation angle can often provide more power, but it can also lead to more wear on the engine. An RV or towing camshaft, which is considered a mild performance or an economy cam, will often have a narrower LSA, between 112 and 114 degrees. For large port heads like the CNC 044's which can use the extra lift 1.4's make a noticable difference. Like choosing a cam in general, the key to eliminating separation anxiety is to find the proper balance of driveability and performance. This cam also offered the highest torque output at 4,000 rpm with 522 lb-ft. Based on the peak numbers alone you might be tempted to grab the one with the tightest (108-degree) LSA, but there is more to a cam test than power. Compression willl be 9.75:1. This has been my long time understanding! The graph above compares intake valve closing points of the three cams used in the test. Need some Cam Advice! | Chevy Tri Five Forum A cam 112LSA with 4 degrees advance puts the intake centerline at 108 degrees. how much boost on a 110 lob sep cam vs 112 vs 114 Thanks for the replies, particularly that link Marc, very informative. The Crane has a smoother idle, broader power band, and . It affects the amount of valve overlap; that is the brief period of time when both the intake and exhaust valves are open. If the cylinder heads are the lungs of an engine, the camshaft is the brain. These issues can often be worked through by an advanced tuner, but always present a challenge and compromise in tuning strategy. This process slows down the reaction rates of the air-fuel mixture, causing temperatures to drop and preventing the engine from overheating. If that were the only consideration, the 101 cam is the clear winner. A narrower lobe separation angle can provide less power but can also lead to less wear. Higher lift and longer duration profiles add power, but do so at higher engine speeds (especially true of duration). All three terms are similar, as they all relate to the relationship between the centerline of the Intake lobe and the centerline of the Exhaust lobe. Also, the wider LSA contributes to chassis stability in drag racing by avoiding the delivery of a ferocious blast of power that would break tire traction. 68 Mustang, 306, AFR 185\'s, CI cam, FPA\'s, Bigs 650 DP, T5Z, 9" w/4.33's. Elle concerne 264 taxons des degrs divers. AquaTraction Vs SeaDek: Which One Is Better For you? Given that nitrous works best in the mid- to upper-rpm range, nitrous-powered engines need a wider lobe separation, like 112 . To establish the position of each lobe, the traditional reference point is where the lobes reach max lift. We will safeguard your e-mail and only send content you request. Because during the lower units oil change, you can go through the issue that the lower plug, Read More Yamaha Lower Unit Drain Plug Size [Explained Everything]Continue, Among the crucial parts of a vehicle ignition system is the ignition coil, also called a spark coil. It made 472.4 lb-ft at peak, a 21.5lb-ft disparity from the 101 cam. The Fora platform includes forum software by XenForo. One segment that truly benefits from a wider LSA is the marine marine market. The Wastegate works by releasing the pressure built inside, Read More What Are The Wastegate Stuck Open Symptoms?Continue, Oops! 112-110 Deg. Yeah but do the experiment on the dyno and tell me your intuition is correct. It creates an unsteady manifold vacuum condition that, on a fuel-injected engine, confuses manifold air pressure (MAP) sensors, making it hard for them to regulate fueling. The #1 intake lobe centerline is usually between 100 The tighter the lobe center, the lower the RPM range; the wider the lobe center, the higher the RPM range. So the wider LSA introduces a broader and therefore longer torque band.. That is why 106 LSA consumes less oil. You get a better idle, vacuum, and response from a 112o-114o lobe. Do you know what the best lobe separation angle for your car engine is? When you don't have any overlap, you can't have any wave tuning. 110 for sure. A forum community dedicated to hot rod owners and enthusiasts. How To Properly Replace Ignition CoilsContinue. This causes the engine's street manners and tuning to become fickle. 110 LSA: However, if you look at the rate of cranking compression at 110 LSA, you will find a reduced compression rate from the standard cranking compression PSI level. It may not display this or other websites correctly. Post How To Properly Replace Ignition Coils, Chevy 350 Ignition Coil Location And Everything About Them, Heres What Causes Your Car to Bog Down When Accelerating. But for small-block Chevys (like the LS applications in this story), the LSA is ground into the cam. The first cam featured a wide 120-degree LSA, while cam number two narrowed the angle to 112 degrees. Simply put, both 106 and 110 lobe separation angles have many advantages and disadvantages. A cam with a 112lobe center will idle smoother than a cam with a 110lobe center. Generally speaking, decreasing the lobe centerline angle increases overlap. The second cam would have a rougher idle, produce more torque and would rev quicker. We even treated them to some chamber work before installation. If a street car has smaller lift and duration numbers, they might run 112 or 114. Typically, narrower lobe separation develops peak torque at lower rpm and widening the separation tends to build peak torque higher in the rpm range. Exhaust reversion is another undesirable side effect that can be caused by overlap. This cam split the difference between the 101 and 113 down the middle, and in theory should have walked the line between the results of the last two tests in every waywhich it did. Another important measurement was the torque production at 4,000 rpm and this cam checked in with 484 lb-ft of torque. Lobe Separation Angle 110 Vs 112 - Truck Guider 106 LSA: On the contrary, if we look at the 106 LSA, we will find it more advantageous and energy efficient than the 110 LSA engine. The engine will have weak performance in the low-end range.A low vacuum can also cause the brake pedal to be quite difficult to press. Every spec is a road map to what the valves are doing, the most common of which are lift, duration, and lobe-separation angle (LSA)the latter needing the most explanation. 110 degrees on the lobe separation angles. Tight LSA cams make excellent low-end torque and have a beautiful power curve. Around 70 percent of muscle-car performance cams fall into this range. I had an XE 274 in it. Call for details with your specific combination. from the intake to the exhaust and vise-versa.Thats why a performance cam will usually have a rougher idle than a stock one. A 232 deg duration cam with a 108 deg LCA will have the same valve overlap as a 236 deg cam with a 110 deg LCA and idle will probably be very similar. Classic Inlines - How to Select a Cam Profile - FordSix Performance Forum Anybody here run a 108 LSA? Thats just the way the customer wants to roll, and engine builders find its easy to deliver such a powerplant. Brul spun the engine over with the dyno's starters and recorded 185 psi of cranking compression. 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Hey guys, can anyone tell me how rough of a idle a cam would be with a 108 lobe separation? At a lower LSA, the engine reaches the peak of the torque earlier than the standard time but generates a lower RPM.On the contrary, at a higher LSA, the engine reaches the peak torque at a higher resistance level and generates a bulk number of RPM. That means your engine can produce more power with a minimum amount of fuel combustion. Powerband serves a massive contribution to the acceleration car. Comp cam hydraulic roller lifters. The valve covers, valvetrain, intake manifold, harmonic balancer, front cover, timing set, and cam were yanked. I know a little about cams. I'm sorry to disagree with that incredibly well written article, but lobe separation by itself is absolutely freaking meaningless. It produces peak torque earliercoming on quicker and strongerbut also it falls off quicker too. A few other major and, Read More Heres What Causes Your Car to Bog Down When AcceleratingContinue, Your email address will not be published. by flat4racer17 Mon May 12, 2003 1:40 pm, Post When you purchase through links on our site, we may earn an affiliate commission, which supports our community. As you tighten the centers ( 108 ) the same engine will make MORE power through the mide range and top end. Camshaft lobe separation angle: what does it mean? | Moore Good Ink The tighter the lobe separation angle, the peakier the power curve will be, confirms Bolander. The LSA, or lobe separation angle, is ground into the cam and cannot be changed. by mrsmythe Wed May 14, 2003 2:26 am, Post 03 The 4.000-inch crank and 6.125-inch rods were combined with a set of forged asymmetrical pistons from JE. Pretty much standard for an RV type cam. Camshaft Kits - 108 Lobe Separation (degrees) - Summit Racing Mechanical aspects like maximum torque, narrower powerband, higher cranking compression rate, efficient compression rate, effective EGR effect, and lower oil consumption rate increase the car engines efficiency and make it energy efficient. = Moderately Wide 110-108 Deg. Now its not shifting into 3rd and you are here. by mrsmythe Mon May 12, 2003 11:15 am, Post 108 is very tight producing lower vacuum and more of a 2 stroke "punch" powerband. The idle quality was better with the 112-degree LSA but not as good as the wider 120-degree cam.The ultra-wide 120-degree LSA lost low-speed power and never recovered, but know that this wide LSA is often beneficial on positive displacement, supercharged applications. The other thing is that you need to tune your ignition advance to maximize your performance. 06 The ported heads featured a 2.165/1.590-inch valve combo. The custom cams we selected all featured 0.624-inch lift (both intake and exhaust) and a 232/242-degree duration split. Things like idle vacuum, fuel economy, and tuning all factor into picking the right cam. camshaft is a Cranecams F238. It has been tried in the VW business earlier, but then they gave it up because of problems with too high temperatures around the exhaust valve, causing them them to break. Bad idea in my view. On a tight lobe separation, like 106-108 degrees, the engine will build torque quickly and reach its peak early. When you purchase through links on our site, we may earn an affiliate commission, which supports our community. Professionally ported & polished iron 4V head with titanium intake valves, stainless exhaust, titanium retainers & keepers & dual springs. Come join the discussion about popular models such as the Mustang, Galaxie, Falcon, Fairlane, Torino, Shelby and many more! by Hoxviii Mon May 12, 2003 7:50 pm, Post The reduced rate of the EGR effect lowers oxygen circulation in the engines combustion chamber. To illustrate the differences offered by changes in the LSA, we had Crane cams grind us three cam profiles that shared the same lift and duration figures, but differed only in the LSA. A wider LSA moves intake- and exhaust-valve events farther apart and creates less overlap, which hurts intake-wave tuning. When boost or nitrous are introduced, and engine builders contemplate choices between single-, dual- or reverse-pattern camshafts then the discussion gets muchmore technical. The lobe separation angle or LSA is the angle in camshaft degrees between the maximum lift points, or centerlines, of the intake and exhaust lobes. by bigjoe1 Sat Dec 06, 2008 10:48 pm, Post Well, I saw that Erson makes some nice hydraulic rollers with 108 LSAs, and I know that tighter LSAs have more midrange, so I thought they might be worth a try. VerticalScope Inc., 111 Peter Street, Suite 600, Toronto, Ontario, M5V 2H1, Canada. It also depends on displacement, some guys will run a bigger cam and widen the LCA to give a better idle but in my opinion it kills power. I've seen a few comments in threads on here that have said things like "going to the 112LC from the 108LC gives 4lbft more torque at the bottom and 2bhp more at the top" yet this would seem to go against what webcam say on. (ICL + ECL) / 2 = LOBE SEPARATION ANGLE (LSA) LSA is a RESULT of the PROPER events. 110 LSA: Oppositely, the cylinder pressure is comparatively lower at 110 LSA than at 106 LSA. TH400 Vs Powerglide: Which One is Ideal for You? (LOBE SEPARATION ANGLE)cam CRANES 110921 has the intake close at 45 degrees ABDC while the wider lsa CRANES 114681 closes the valves at 50.0 ABDC . LSA CAM TEST-108 vs 112 vs 120 Richard Holdener 239K subscribers 168K views 2 years ago WESTECH PERFORMANCE GROUP FULL RESULTS-CHANGE ONLY LSA-LS CAM TEST. The Fora platform includes forum software by XenForo. . For your convenience, I am providing a comparison table to give you an overall idea about the comparison. cam for torque.110 or 112 LSA????? - Team Camaro Tech If you compared these two cams side by side in identical engines, the first cam would actually have a slightly better idle and would produce slightly more peak power at upper RPM's. Also know as Lobe Separation; Lobe Center is simply the distance between the peak opening points on the Intake and Exhaust lobes. After the next three pulls, it was clear the 113 cam was way down on low-end torque. Wide LSA cams are also applicable in forced-induction applications where less exhaust overlap is required. If that accessory still does not assist the cam in producing enough vacuum, then as a last resort you can use a vacuum pump. Chuck Lawrence of Jon Kaase Racing Engines was asked to give a 520ci BBF a Pro Stock sound, so he went with a 108 LSA in place of a more conventional 112 LSA. It is possible to advance and retard the timing events, but the distance between the centerline of the lobes will remain constant. I have Crane hydraulic link bar style roller lifters, so I dont have to use the spider style. 110 vs. 112 lobe seperarion on a cam - Chevy Message Forum by jobes Sat Dec 06, 2008 3:51 pm, Post *If you do not have enough vacuum, you can in some cases install a vacuum canister or reservoir, which works by storing the peak vacuum in the reservoir. 13 The three power curves indicate that the wide (120-degree) LSA (green lines) lost considerable torque to the other two cams. Nitrous engines, which make plenty of power and torque, often run wide lobe separation angles to moderate cylinder pressures and temperatures. Lobe separations on 383-406 cids.104-106-108-110? Okay, have a sigh because you have opened the right door. JavaScript is disabled. And better gas mileage. This wave tuning is what helps performance engines achieve volumetric efficiencies of more than 100 percent. 110 will be a bit punchier in the midrange and probalby make a little more peak horsepower as long as a good exhaust is used. The wider lobe separation angle closes the intake valve later and reduces cylinder pressure, so that is where it's detonation resistance comes from. We use 86b webcams with 1.25 rockers frequently in stroker motors.It's a nice way of getting close to .500" for hot street motors with average heads. Most street cams are ground 4 degrees advanced which boosts bottom end, throttle response, vacume, mpg driveability etc. But there is a drawback of higher cylinder pressure: higher cylinder pressure may sometimes lead to piston or piston ring problems. It is the angle that separates the intake and exhaust lobe for a particular cylinder, and is measured in camshaft degrees. But an interestingly shocking fact is that this event escalates the air-fuel mixtures reaction rates, causing temperatures to rise and causing the problem of overheating the engine. But, at 106 LSA, the cranking compression may increase above the standard PSI level. what does 112+2 lsa mean?? - LS1GTO Forums 11 Doing LS cam swaps on the engine dyno is a breeze, each taking less than 1 hour. The 234o duration kind of eliminates the RV usage. 02 The 402-inch stroker short-block combined an aluminum LS2 block with a 4.000-inch crank and 6.125-inch rods. Defining Lobe Center and It's Importance to Engine Performance: A Blog. 05 To ensure our stroker combo had sufficient airflow, we installed a set of Chevrolet Performance CNC-ported LS3 heads from Gandrud Chevrolet. Also If you go with 112 lobe centers, you create less valve overlap which will increase your compretion. LCA (lobe center angle) vs LSA (lobe seperation angle) Lobe sepsration is an advanced description for overlap.If you take a cam on a 112,and grind it on a 108,you add more overlap,the time the valves are both open.Narrower lobe centers mean more low end and midrange torque,along with a peakier powerband,and a slightly rougher idle.Tradeoffs are sensitivity to octane ratings,total timing, and air fuel ratio.A lot to swallow I know,hope this helps you. The 110 is probably a better choice for a performance street engine. Myoinositol reduction in medial prefrontal cortex of obsessive Consequently, decreased torque rate often leads to more energy consumption. On the cranking compression test, Brul recorded 175 psi, a 10-psi drop from the outgoing 101 cam. But, you may wonder knowing that a higher valve clearance rate reduces the chance of damaging the valve by the piston. 106 LSA: There is a scale of standard cranking compression of the engine. 110 LSA: But here, quite surprisingly, you have to face the reduction of the EGR effect due to the 110 LSA. 114 lsa cam sound clips | LS1LT1 Forum - Sheryl Crow. how well would a 108 lsa cam do on the street over a 110? BUT, 114 will have more vacuum at idle, which will work better with some fuelinjection. Simply put, both 106 and 110 lobe separation angles have many advantages and disadvantages. Lobe Separation Angle - Restoration and Repair Help A forum community dedicated to vintage Ford Mustang owners and enthusiasts. I'd run it, just be sure to check valve to piston clearance, coil bind and retainer to guide boss/seal clearance. Many later model engines use wide lobe separation angles to reduce overlap for idle quality and fuel economy. Good luck. hydraboost is the same as a vacuum brakebooster, only the booster is replaced by a unit that does the same but under hydraulic pressure. Mike Magda is a veteran automotive writer with credits in publications such as Racecar Engineering, Hot Rod, Engine Technology International, Motor Trend, Automobile, Automotive Testing Technology and Professional Motorsport World. Full text of "Pediatric Books" #2---Choosing a Cam - Hughes Engines Camshaft: Hydraulic Roller, Comp Cam custom grind (ADV Duration 281-287,@ .050 230-236, lift 622I & 625E w/1.6 rockers.) what to expect with different lobe centers | Chevy Nova Forum It will also give you a smoother idle and probably even better gas mileage. On the cranking. The piston and cylinder damage possibility is pretty low at 110 LSA. If you changed the lobe separation of a street engine from 112 degrees to 106 and didnt do anything else, adds Kaase. Camshafts Demystified - CarTechBooks A 112 LSA would be better if I had an automatic, but the engine builder (who has built many, many drag racing engines)told me I would have much faster acceleration with the 108, at the expense of a broader power band of course, but that 108 would not unduly penalize me for the street. Contrariwise, 106 LSA car engines are the best choice for people seeking energy-efficient cars with moderate engine power. 114LSA +4 puts the intake centerline at 110 degrees before top dead center. That was all, and we have already reached the concluding point. Its also critical that valve overlap is kept to a minimum as the induction system can create a suction that pulls water into the motor, adds Bolander. With minimal overlap and a steady manifold vacuum signal, they work great with fuel-injection systems and are the norm on modern pushrod engines, such as the LS and Gen III hemi. The introduction of Lunati'snew Bootleggerhydraulic series - with its wicked 108-degree lobe-separation angle, fast opening profile and plenty of area under the lift curve - will serve only to fuel the flames on this heated bench-racing topic. Engine builders Chuck Lawrence, left, and Doug Patton. Part Number: HRS-CL120325-08. The only reason the advance or retard a camshaft profile is to get the timing events where they need to be. The 108 LSA offered the lowest idle vacuum of the three (down 4 inches). 3.75" stroke= 108 LSA 4.00" stroke= 110 LSA 4.25" stroke= 112 LSA 4.50" stroke= 114 LSA I can see exactly where his theory is coming from. Thanks again. 106 LSA: The overlapping is higher as 106 LSA is comparatively tighter LSA than 110 LSA. I think the compression ratio has something to do with LSA too. you cannot just take a random change in a lobe separation angle and say 1 is better than the other. Lobe separations on 383-406 cids.104-106-108-110? - Don Terrill's Speed And better gas mileage. 106 LSA: As the 106 LSA is a tighter LSA, it fails to generate maximum power. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding. Before we all start suffering from separation anxiety, we need to understand what lobe separation angle actually is and then how it affects your engine. He also enjoys reading books a lot and his favorite author is Paula Coelho. 108 vs 112 lobe seperation. Its the shifting problem again with your Chevy! To overcome this inherent problem in wide LSA camshafts, you simply need a higher-flowing intake port. 114 vs 110 lobe sep. on cam | NastyZ28.com Big strokers like tighter LCA but it really depends on your combo and usage, theres great OTS cams but for a custom engine a custom cam is the way to go With identical cam lobes you won't see a bit of difference. Lobe separations gives lots of overlap and lobe centers just happens when the grinder decides how the peak of the lobe will arrive on a specific grind by their tooling. It affects the powerband and temperament of a motor more than any other single part, and a slight change can turn a car from a mild-tempered grocery-getter to a downright nasty machine. You cannot look at just the LCA without looking at other specs too. In terms of horsepower, the disparity between all three cams was only 6.5 hp, with a scant 100 rpm separating the peaks. More than any other component, the cam profile determines things like idle quality, mileage, and overall driveability. Howards Cam Vs Comp Cam: Which Is The Best Option For You? whats the difference in how the car will run. Lower cylinder pressure is advantageous for your engine. 2.1.3 Transponder reply modes (air-to-ground) 2.1.3.1 Transponders shall respond to Mode A interrogations in accordance with the provisions of 3.1.1.7.12.1 and to Mode C interrogations in accordance . on average with a N/A motor if you stick the two cams in at the track the tighter lsa will be faster at the expense of idle quality. If two cams are identical with the exception of lobe separation angle (we'll say 108 and 114) the cam with 114LSA will make more low end power than the 108LSA cam? Cam timing plays an important role not only in the power generated but also the overall character of the powerplant. The lumpy-idling 101 LSA cam churned out an average of 484.0 hp at 6,100 rpm with 493.9 lb-ft of torque at 4,400 rpm. Armed with more information on camshaft theory, what will you build? . Camshafts with a substantial overlapping tendency should not be used in vehicles driven on public streets. Also present during testing was a set of 1 7/8-inch Kooks headers, Comp hydraulic roller lifters, and F-body oil pan. A commonly held misconception is that intake/exhaust overlap contributes to lower cranking compression. It's wet flow tested at 690cfm. This was science at work, and with data in tow, it was time to crunch the numbers and find out what was going on. ALL bolts are ARP. Valve lift will bear weight in any decision regarding LSA. That notion is completely false. Now that we have a basic understanding of lobe separation angle, we can put together a test to illustrate just what happens when you make changes to it. A cams Lobe center angle equals intake centerline plus exhaust . You can research your heads to find out where yours are, but honestly I don't think it will be worth the effort on a tow vehicle. Is it a hydraulic roller as well? Chevy Transmission Wont Shift Into 3rd: Finding the Main Culprit, Yamaha Lower Unit Drain Plug Size [Explained Everything], Does It Matter Which Ignition Coil Goes Where? If you take any of the . The ported heads were capable of supporting over 700 hp, so we knew they would not be restrictive on our stroker. As boost increases, the air will be forced through the cylinder, vs. being trapped in the cylinder. lobe separation angle | For A Bodies Only Mopar Forum Again this is dependent on your shift rpm and assuming you truly have 14-1 compression. Ed JTO learn to park Joined May 31, 2009 180 Posts VerticalScope Inc., 111 Peter Street, Suite 600, Toronto, Ontario, M5V 2H1, Canada. http://www.mustangworks.com/cgi-bin/moi-display.cgi?220, http://www.popularhotrodding.com/en6em_camshaft_specs/lobe_seperation_angle.html. You are using an out of date browser. JavaScript is disabled. To demonstrate changes to lobe separation in action, we ordered three camshafts from Comp Cams, all ground with identical lift (0.541 intake and 0.537 exhaust) and duration (230 intake and 236 exhaust) but with three different LSAs: a 101, a 107, and a 113. Post I do believe that stock VW seperation is 108 and 112 is used alot in turbo and midrange cams for VW's while 106 is used for the top end cams. Lobe seperation cant be seperated from duration,the 2 are connected.the old duntov cam had a lot less duration than many new cams so the valve overlap was not extreme and the engine ran with a gentle lope.Increase the duration by 20* and this cam would shake a 283 out of the car at idle,but then increase the lobe seperation by 4* and the motor will have a gentle lope again. We promise not to use your email address for anything but exclusive updates from the Power Automedia Network. Retarding the camshaft (a higher intake lobe centerline number 108 vs. 104) will generally start the power band later in the RPM range and decrease the cylinder pressure.